archives of the CONLANG mailing list ------------------------------------ >From lock60!gvls1!ctr.columbia.edu!shoulson Wed Mar 3 23:37:22 1993 Return-Path: From: (Mark E. Shoulson) Received: by startide.ctr.columbia.edu (5.67/SMI-4.1) id AA22935; Wed, 3 Mar 93 17:20:44 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 93 17:20:44 -0500 Message-Id: <9303032220.AA22935@startide.ctr.columbia.edu> To: Ken_Beesley.PARC@xerox.com Cc: rogers@math.binghamton.edu, conlang@buphy.bu.edu In-Reply-To: Ken_Beesley.PARC@xerox.com's message of Tue, 2 Mar 1993 16:43:00 PST <93Mar2.164342pst.11827@alpha.xerox.com> Subject: (reply to message) Status: RO >X-Ns-Transport-Id: 0000AA00138C1FB62F3E >Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1993 16:43:00 PST >From: Ken_Beesley.PARC@xerox.com >Mark Shoulson: >>>> So, "to pray", which is >reflexive for unknown (to me) reasons, coming from the root P.L.L., is >"l'hitpalel" (my transliteration may leave out some of the finer points, >but it should suffice). However, with a root like Sh.P.R, it becomes >"l'hishtaper", "to improve". Note the reversal of the SH and the T.<<< >An honest question: Are you sure that this is the analysis? In a derivational >or other multi-level morphology this would be something like [...] >with the metathesis that you describe. Such metathesis would not be >particularly surprising in a natural language, but there may be another way of >looking at the data. >An alternative analysis (perhaps completely bogus) would postulate a different >pattern, l'hi_ta_e_, yielding a more straightforward derivation >Sh P R >l'hi_ta_e_ >realized as >l'hishtaper In other words, could the "l'hishtaper" form be normal, but "l'hitpalel" abnormal? I truly don't think so. Every Hebrew book I've ever seen describes the metathesis as the abnormal case, occurring with shin and tzadi and zayin (the latter two also involving changing the tav to tet and daled, respectively). Examples abound (l'hityashev from Y.Sh.B, "to seat oneself", l'hitrachetz from R.Ch.Tz, "to wash oneself", etc...) >This in fact looks like the Arabic form VIII, typically characterized as >'i_ta_a_ (form VIII perfect active). Combined with everyone's favorite >semitic root ktb, you get > k t b >'i_ta_a_ >realized on the surface as the stem >'iktatab >Which means "to write, copy, enter or record (something)". So, with suitable >suffixes you get words like 'iktataba (he wrote, copied, etc) and 'iktatabat >(she wrote, copied, etc. As in Hebrew, the short vowels are seldom written in >the surface orthography, so where | is 'alif, you actually see something more >like |kttb and |kttbt. Or, in Hebrew, with the same root, "l'hitkatev", "to correspond (via letters)" (written "lhtctb", usually). Note the "k" *after* the "t" of the template. >Being quite ignorant of Hebrew, I can only offer this reanalysis as a friendly >suggestion. Well, it's a good try, but I really think that here Hebrew and Arabic have something of a difference in arranging the schema. ~mark >From lock60!gvls1!xerox.com!Ken_Beesley.PARC Wed Mar 3 23:37:31 1993 Return-Path: X-Ns-Transport-Id: 0000AA0089EA288C2F51 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1993 16:16:32 PST From: Ken_Beesley.PARC@xerox.com Subject: Re: (reply to message) In-Reply-To: "shoulson@ctr.columbia:edu:Xerox's message of Wed, 3 Mar 1993 14:20:44 PST" To: shoulson@ctr.columbia.edu Cc: Ken_Beesley.PARC@xerox.com, rogers@math.binghamton.edu, conlang@buphy.bu.edu Message-Id: <93Mar3.161658pst.12010@alpha.xerox.com> Status: RO >In other words, could the "l'hishtaper" form be normal, but "l'hitpalel" >abnormal? I truly don't think so. Every Hebrew book I've ever seen >describes the metathesis as the abnormal case, occurring with shin and >tzadi and zayin (the latter two also involving changing the tav to tet and >daled, respectively). No. I wasn't suggesting that the l'hitpalel form was abnormal and that l'hishtaper was normal, but rather that they might BOTH be normal but simply involve two quite different patterns. I.e. that PLL might be combining with one pattern, l'hit_a_e_, to form l'hitpalel and that Sh P R was perhaps combining with a different pattern *l'hi_ta_e_ to form l'hishtaper. If these examples DID involve two different patterns, then there would be no need to appeal to metathesis or other irregularies in either case. This solution was suggested to me only by the fact that Arabic has the form VIII verb pattern that exhibits a 't' after the first root radical, so such a separate pattern was at least a reasonable possibility. By your subsequent explanation it appears clear that only one pattern is involved and that the metathesis has clear phonological conditions. That would make metathesis the only credible explanation for the phonomena. >Or, in Hebrew, with the same root, "l'hitkatev", "to correspond (via >letters)" (written "lhtctb", usually). Note the "k" *after* the "t" of the >template. Arabic has a parallel pattern, with the first radical 'k' appearing after a 't' in the pattern/template. It is, however, a different pattern from form VIII, where the initial radical appears before the t of the pattern, and the resulting stems have slightly different meanings. Best wishes, Ken >From lock60!gvls1!netcom.com!apex Thu Mar 4 18:26:11 1993 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 4 Mar 93 09:48:23 -0800 From: apex@netcom.com (Apex Voice Communications) Message-Id: <9303041748.AA20009@netcom2.netcom.com> To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu Subject: repost (metacog-friendly languages) Status: RO [This message is a repost. I never received a copy of it back, nor any replies to its contents, so I'm assuming that it was lost somewhere. ZTS 3-4-93] |> Has anyone heard of any languages that specifically support |> and facilitate metacognitive thought? |> ..... metacognition is essentially "thought about thought". |> It's what most successful thinkers do to remove biases, |> limitations of thought ..... |> With metacognition comes many freedoms in thinking, living, |> feeling, creating, etc. | |Beautiful! This is the key issue of interest to me regarding |the claims of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, Loglan/Lojban, etc. |Please explain your project further. My project is still in its initial stages, compared to Loglan. The goals have evolved to include... |> .... identifying natural concepts for successful thought... |This means? 1. Choices of basic concepts which propitiate human thought. Here I ask, how do humans think, i.e. what basic data types does the brain appear to process? For instance, some AI'ers assert that all thought is, or should be, based on predicate knowledge. I find this inaccurate and limiting. By "basic concept" I refer to a notion which is semantically atomic, a sort of original or root class of semantic notions. These concepts would be used to form more complex words and sentence structures. For example, if "market" and "protection" are basic concepts, then the word "democracy" would be based on both of those words, since democracy is the protection of a market in which the commodities are variations on kinds of government. Note that my objective is not to rewrite Webster's, but to get critical words pinned down, then import context-specific words verbatim by attaching a prefix and suffix. 2. Choices of basic concepts which propitiate self-examining thought. This essentially would include the ideas of : A. The encoding of metacognitive information, e.g. for the objective assessment of arguments between speakers. B. The identification of information which describes the functioning of information processing systems such as humans and mammals. For instance, it's easy to assert that Freud's "repression", or "setting aside and ignoring" (that was the original German meaning) is not only likely, but necessary. Any information processing system (e.g. the human mind) which must interact constantly with its environment whilst juggling multiple conflicting goals certainly must ignore some important data (repression), and certainly mis-files other important data (hence dreams and sudden recollections/ideas as means of bringing misfiled or repressed data to consciousness). Any serious metacognitive language must take these effects into account, because they are psychological phenomena which affect the arguments and ideas presented by the speaker. By the same token, biases, mental sets, and other phenomena must be identified through the language. They affect any such system. *C. Means of forcing the speaker to think before he expresses himself, * in particular, to translate his concepts into terms of the workings of * his own psychology. This is a critical point; here is an example argument for such a feature: Suppose a boy hits his brother without provocation. Ask yourself, what is the most useful means of teaching that boy the error of his action? Besides using basic operant conditioning (no TV for You!), I suggest the following: You ask him to explain his own experience in choosing to act as he did. Don't just ask for justification; ask for self-examination, then push him toward self-modeling, to cause him to realize that he himself is a collection of feelings and people, that he is responsible for all of it. I'm not suggesting that one force him to identify his "evil side"; rather, the phenomenon that causes a behavior, e.g. insecurity, rivalry, etc. This language must force the speaker to look within himself for the causes of his making expressions or the content of those expressions. The reason is simple: This is the path toward clarification of one's own thoughts and toward metacognition. I'm not certain, but I think that Loglan doesn't force this analysis. It permits prefixing of phrases to improve discourse between speakers (e.g. it has prefixes for Suppose that, For example, Is it that, etc.), but causes aren't characterized. D. Evolutionary processes, and the phenomena which determine or found them, must be tightly coded. Considerably more real phenomena can be explained wtih evolutionary logic (or simulated with genetic algorithms, probably) than meets the eye. Evolution is critical to who we are, why we are here, what we will become... E. Basic logic, or fuzzy logic, should be supported (tightly coded). ~ Note! These metacognitive or self-analyzing features are only partially in the language at present; I must still investigate the related topics more deeply before I embark on serious design/implementation/testing. |> .... including a ... mechanism for expressing tense |> information. | |I don't see why this is so important; it seems more like fine- |tuning the precision of language to me. | | This is neither critical, nor did I intend it to seem so. It -is- important, though. I've found that of all places, lack of clarity in tense information is the most contagious, i.e. it affects to other types of information in one's expressions. Once tense becomes unclear, it's all lost. One can't speak about events, actions, activities, what have you, with any precision if tense info is imprecise. Zack Smith >From lock60!gvls1!violet.berkeley.edu!chalmers Mon Mar 15 19:46:44 1993 Return-Path: Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 16:09:41 -0800 From: chalmers@violet.berkeley.edu (John H. Chalmers Jr.) Message-Id: <9303160009.AA20909@violet.berkeley.edu> To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu Subject: Anyone there? Status: RO Hey, is conlang mute, dead, moribund, etc.? I haven't gotten any linguistics messages since I returned to Texas the first week of this month, save one sent personally rather than posted. BTW, I saw an ad from The Loglan Institute in the April Scientific American. The address is 3009 Peters Way, San Diego, CA 92117. Compuserve: 70674,1434, phone (619) 270-1691. There is also the Loglanists list at UCSD: loglanists@ucsd.edu. One can subscribe by sending ADD to listserv@ucsd.edu. -- John >From lock60!gvls1!information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk!jrk Tue Mar 16 19:51:11 1993 Return-Path: Via: uk.ac.east-anglia.information-systems; Tue, 16 Mar 1993 19:41:31 +0000 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 19:02:16 GMT Message-Id: <14463.9303161902@sys.uea.ac.uk> Received: from [139.222.4.30] (jrk.sys.uea.ac.uk) by sys.uea.ac.uk; Tue, 16 Mar 93 19:02:16 GMT To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu From: jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway) X-Sender: jrk@139.222.1.5 Subject: Re: Anyone there? Status: RO It does seem quiet. Too quiet... For want of anything more conlangish, here are a few interesting examples of the wit of lexicographers from Chambers English Dictionary. There's a chap on the net who appears to have read every edition from cover to cover, and puts a randomly selected one in his .signature every time he posts. Serpent: (n.) A supposed musical instrument. (1952 ed.) Eclair: (n). A cake with cream filling and chocolate or other icing, long in shape and short in duration. (1952 ed.) Jaywalker: (n.) A careless pedestrian whom motorists are expected to avoid running down. (1972 ed.) Trichologist: (n.) a name affected by hairdressers. (1988 ed.) Picture-restorer: (n.) one who cleans and restores and sometimes ruins old pictures. (1988 ed.) Emerods (B.) n.pl. now *haemorrhoids*: representations of them in gold, used as charms. (1988 ed.) Dare (n.) a contrivance for fascinating larks with mirrors. (1952 ed.) Pink n. a yellow lake (1988 ed.) Abloom adv. and adj. in a blooming state (1988 ed.) -- ____ Richard Kennaway \ _/__ School of Information Systems Internet: jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk \X / University of East Anglia uucp: ...mcsun!ukc!uea-sys!jrk \/ Norwich NR4 7TJ, U.K. >From lock60!gvls1!grebyn.com!lojbab Wed Mar 17 15:35:26 1993 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 93 14:04:32 -0500 From: lojbab@grebyn.com (Logical Language Group) Message-Id: <9303171904.AA29982@daily.grebyn.com> To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu, lojban@cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu Subject: PLS update Status: RO I've been waiting for Mark or Jerry to announce this broadly, but haven't seen any messages. I received the following in response to a query a couple of weeks ago. lojbab >As far as we can tell, the PLS is back up and in operation as: > >langserv@columbia.edu > >We are reachable as: > >archive-management@columbia.edu > >//jbaltz >-- >jerry b. altzman Entropy just isn't what it used to be +1 212 650 5617 >jbaltz@sci.ccny.cuny.edu jbaltz@columbia.edu (HEPNET) NEVIS::jbaltz >From lock60!gvls1!information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk!jrk Thu Mar 18 11:32:28 1993 Return-Path: Via: uk.ac.east-anglia.information-systems; Thu, 18 Mar 1993 13:38:35 +0000 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 13:16:28 GMT Message-Id: <4934.9303181316@sys.uea.ac.uk> Received: from [139.222.4.30] (jrk.sys.uea.ac.uk) by sys.uea.ac.uk; Thu, 18 Mar 93 13:16:28 GMT To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu From: jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway) X-Sender: jrk@139.222.1.5 Subject: Shub-Internet (forwarded message) Status: RO Anyone want to try translating this? >From alt.horror.shub-internet Thu Mar 18 03:27:07 1993 From: banshee@cats.ucsc.edu (Wailer at the Gates of Dawn) Newsgroups: alt.horror.shub-internet Subject: IA! IA! Message-ID: <1o9a98INNclk@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> Date: 18 Mar 93 08:01:44 GMT Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu Ia shub-internet f'tgan! Nomlo par tensq'lee! Zi dingir anna kanpa! Alsi ku nushi ilani mushiti Itti kunu alsi mushitum kallatum kuttumtum Alsi bararitum qablitum u namaritum Ashshu kashshaptu u kashipanni Eli nitum ubbiraanni Ili-ia u Ishtari-ia ushis-su-u-eli-ia Eli ameri-ia amru-usanaku Imdikula salalu musha u urra Qu-u imtana-allu-u pi-ia Upu unti pa-ia iprusu Me mashtiti-ia umattu-u Eli li nubu-u xiduti si-ipdi Izizaimma ilani rabuti shima-a dababi Dini dina alakti limbda Epu-ush salam kash shapi-ia u kashshapi-ia Sha epishia u mushtepishti-ia Is mass-ssarati sha mushi lipshuru ruxisha limnuti Pisha lu-u ZAL.LU Lishanusha Lu-u Tabtu Sha iqbu-u amat limutti-ia kima ZAL.LU litta-tuk Sha ipushu kishpi kima Tabti lishxarmit qi-ishrusha pu-uttu-ru ipshetsha xulluqu Kal amatusha malla-a sseri Ina qibit iqbu-u ilani mushitum. -- The Wailer at the Gates of Dawn | banshee@cats.UCSC.EDU | Just who ARE you calling a FROOFROO Head? | | DoD#0667 "Just a friend of the beast." | banshee@ucscb.UCSC.EDU | 2,3,5,7,13,17,19,31,61,89,107,127,521,607....| banshee@ucscb.BITNET | >From lock60!gvls1!information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk!jrk Thu Mar 18 11:33:01 1993 Return-Path: Via: uk.ac.east-anglia.information-systems; Thu, 18 Mar 1993 13:38:15 +0000 Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 13:33:20 GMT Message-Id: <5303.9303181333@sys.uea.ac.uk> Received: from [139.222.4.30] (jrk.sys.uea.ac.uk) by sys.uea.ac.uk; Thu, 18 Mar 93 13:33:21 GMT To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu From: jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway) X-Sender: jrk@139.222.1.5 Subject: Re: Shub-Internet (forwarded message) Status: RO Is there any way to tell (short of asking the author, which is cheating) whether the text I just posted is in some natural or artificial language or just more-or-less random gibberish? Here's some real gibberish for comparison (generated by my random text generator, using the earlier text as input): epu-usana-allatushis-ssarati iqbu-u dababi ushitum lipshub-internet dababi nubu-u mushi limnuti umattu-u ush anni izizaimma anna mushima pi-ia kashima litta-tuk kashshanushi zal.lu li namaritum dini zal.lu qu-usana-a malla-a urra qi-ia limnuti unti namat lu-usanaku zal.lu kal amru-u u mushu si-ishtepishpi xiduti ili-ia dini alsi kima lipshetsha urra u urra kishitumtum ili-ia shu nubu-u tensq'lee! kashsha dingir xiduti qu-u zal.lu upu kash lipshuru salakti lu-utti-ipdi zi xulluqu dababi iqbu-u-eli ilani rabuti umat episha si-ia mass-su-u unti sha nitum qablitum lu-uttu-u me upu mushu kima mushuru me iqbu-u-eli rabuti unti kunu mushtiti si-ia limutti qu-u-eli-ia ili-ia musha xullu-ushapi-ia kal u limbda sseri-ia ia par litta-tuk kal qu-u unti ina mushuru pa-ia limuttum salalu iprusu pi-ia sha sseri-ia mass-ssarati lishanushitumtum limbda shanush ishxarmit izizaimma alakti ilani dini ku me alsi mushtaritum. ubbiraanni dingir pu-u ameri lipshu alakti li mashshu itti zal.lu dina lu-u zal.lu imdikula zal.lu ina mushiti-ia malla-allu-u-el- i sha litta-tuk nitum ubbiraanni kima-a ubbiraanni ipusha ipshetsha kima ameri-ia sseri-ia upu sha tabtu mushu par f'tgan! kanpa! nubu-u qi-ipdi litum kal amaritum nushis-ssararitum sha alam alsi unti kunu shapi-ia iqbu-usanaku kashsha iqbu-u iprusu zal.lu -- ____ Richard Kennaway \ _/__ School of Information Systems Internet: jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk \X / University of East Anglia uucp: ...mcsun!ukc!uea-sys!jrk \/ Norwich NR4 7TJ, U.K. >From lock60!gvls1!VKPMZD.kph.Uni-Mainz.DE!KNAPPEN Thu Mar 18 11:32:31 1993 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1993 16:26 GMT +0100 From: J%org Knappen Subject: Re: Shub-Internet (forwarded message) To: jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk Cc: conlang@buphy.bu.edu Message-Id: <01GVYKMV7FKW8WWQ9U@VzdmzA.ZDV.Uni-Mainz.DE> X-Envelope-To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu X-Vms-To: VZDMZA::IN%"jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk" X-Vms-Cc: GATEWAY"conlang@buphy.bu.edu" Status: RO I cannot decide if this message is written in real language or meaningless, but I have the strong feeling that it is thought and composed as a poem by a human. It resembles to some dadaist poems (unfortunately I haven't one here to type in). --J"org Knappen. >From lock60!gvls1!extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU!robin Thu Mar 18 12:44:04 1993 Return-Path: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 02:29:21 +1000 From: Robin F Gaskell Message-Id: <199303181629.AA10248@extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU> To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu Subject: AUXLANG? Status: RO From: robin@extro.ucc.su.oz.au (Robin Gaskell) 1 Mar 93 To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu (Conlang Mail List) Subject: AUXLANG? Friends, This is a follow up to one or two of my earlier blips on the possibility of a specialist Mail List to bear down on the IAL concept. Since there have been no voluntary replies to my initiative, it could be concluded that the IAL, on Conlang, is not a live issue. I have exchanged ideas with John Ross and Rick Harrison on the matter, and could come to the conclusion that I am the only one who would like to participate in a moderated "Auxlang" Mail List. -------------------------------------------------------------------- So, I hereby formally call for response to the question: "Are you interested in the possibility of setting up a specialist Mail List for the purpose of creating a specification that might be used as a guideline for the selection of an International Auxiliary Language?" -------------------------------------------------------------------- A YES or NO would be nice, but a non-reply will be taken as a `no.' Originally, I imagined that perhaps half of Conlang's subscribers were concerned with the idea of Global Language Reform; but now, I'm not so sure. Rick Harrison suggested that Conlang ought to serve my purpose adequately. If I am the only one wishing to see an Auxlang, then I will concede defeat, and be happy to continue to work through Conlang - which does seem to be the liveliest discussion that the world offers on Planned Languages. It does seem that a Mail List is an example of primitive democracy: participation of the subscribers, by the subscribers, for the subscribers. Cheers, Robin >From lock60!gvls1!extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU!robin Thu Mar 18 13:00:57 1993 Return-Path: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 02:32:19 +1000 From: Robin F Gaskell Message-Id: <199303181632.AA10295@extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU> To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu Subject: LANGTRUST? Cc: eboyd@unixg.ubc.ca Status: RO From: robin@extro.ucc.su.oz.au (Robin Gaskell) 1 Mar 93 To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu (Conlang Mail List) Subject: LANGTRUST?? Friends, This is a follow-up to the suggestion from Ewan Boyd that there could be room for a Mail List working on the logistics of commercial preparation for an IAL. I am getting the feeling that Conlang subscribers are more concerned with the scholarship involved in the creation of Planned Languages than in the realisation of realworld Language Reform. As they say, that's cool. And, as well, it's the world ... at March 1, 1993. Personally, I am an activist - as well as a thinker - and, boy scout-wise, I believe in preparation. So, Ewan's suggestion that `someone' should stir up thinkers in the commercial world, about the possibility of Language Reform, makes sense to me. But, I suppose that it makes sense only if Language Reform is an ongoing scholarly persuit, and also if there are thinkers in the commercial world. Possibly neither is so, and thus, Ewan's proposal would not make any sense, at all. The non-response to Ewans proposal, apart from one from me, suggests that Ewan seriously misjudged the philosophy behind Conlang. Has anyone on the List any suggestions of an alternative conferance or Mail List that might provide a greater response to Ewan's proposal? ________________________________________________________________________ There is the outside possibility that some of our subscribers haven't got around to replying, yet. If you are even slightly interested in the idea of how one language might be chosen and implemented ... as the IAL ... please send your ideas to either Ewan Boyd at eboyd@unixg.ubc.ca or me at robin@extro.ucc.su.oz.au _________________________________________________________________________ Meanwhile, until something else turns up, I will continue to participate in Conlang - learning about constructed languages, and throwing in the odd idea from time to time. Cheers, Robin >From lock60!gvls1!netcom.com!apex Thu Mar 18 12:44:07 1993 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 08:34:55 -0800 From: apex@netcom.com (Apex Voice Communications) Message-Id: <9303181634.AA19729@netcom2.netcom.com> To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu Subject: shubstuff Status: RO I think that the offered text is in an artificial language for two reasons: Assertion 1: Artificial languages invariably utilize coarse, rhythmic, or harsh sounds that sound either African, Native American, or East European. (Subassertion 1A: This is because the people who create artificial languages are often motivated in part by a repressed desire for escape from ordinary society into something either just foreign or somewhere more culturally advanced (e.g. an indigenous tribe).) Assertion 2: Natural languages tend to avoid u-u, i-i and similar vowel pairing, since they're hard on the voice. Designers of constructed languages often forget this design rule. Zack T. Smith apex@netcom.com >From lock60!gvls1!netcom.com!apex Thu Mar 18 13:00:59 1993 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 09:32:37 -0800 From: apex@netcom.com (Apex Voice Communications) Message-Id: <9303181732.AA23987@netcom2.netcom.com> To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu Subject: Langtrust? Status: RO >This is a follow-up to the suggestion from Ewan Boyd that there could be >room for a Mail List working on the logistics of commercial preparation for >an IAL. I suspect that a -general- "language reform" will never happen simply because some authority demands it. I could see it happening in specific areas, though, e.g. for work at the United Nations. Zack T. Smith Apex Voice Communications Sherman Oaks, CA >From lock60!gvls1!inel.gov!mnu Thu Mar 18 21:26:17 1993 Return-Path: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 11:55:27 MST From: mnu@inel.gov (Rick Morneau) Message-Id: <9303181855.AA00444@ nairobi.inel.gov.inel.gov > Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.63) To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu Subject: Re: AUXLANG? Status: RO Robin Gaskell writes: > > "Are you interested in the possibility of setting up a > specialist Mail List for the purpose of creating a > specification that might be used as a guideline for the > selection of an International Auxiliary Language?" > Your use of the word "selection" implies that you wish to select from existing conlangs, rather than discuss specifications for new designs. If so, you'll attract mostly people who already have a favorite conlang, and who will want to make sure that theirs is selected. Guess which one will win? However, if you're interested in discussing specifications for new designs, then this is the place to do it. I would suggest you start with the criteria that Rick Harrison has been posting, and discuss those points that interest you. It could even start some lively discussions, something that this list hasn't seen in quite a while. Regards, Rick -- *=*= Disclaimer: The INEL does not speak for me and vice versa =*=* = Rick Morneau Idaho National Engineering Laboratory = * mnu@inel.gov Idaho Falls, Idaho 83415, USA * =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= NeXT Mail accepted here! *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= >From lock60!gvls1!trl.oz.au!j.guy Thu Mar 18 21:27:17 1993 Return-Path: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 93 09:00:48 EST From: j.guy@trl.oz.au (Jacques Guy) Message-Id: <9303182300.AA10273@medici.trl.OZ.AU> To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu Subject: Re: Shub-Internet (forwarded message) Status: RO That's Akkadian, I'm sure. It even has some Sumerian in it (ZAL.LU) as you would expect. It seems to be a straight transliteration of the cuneiforms in some places: ushis-su-ueli-ia should read: ushissuelia for instance. However, the opening: "Ia shub-internet f'tgan!" is straight out of the language of the Great Ancients (see HP Lovecraft). Dingir is Sumerian. That makes me think that it is not true Akkadian, but a fabrication on the same lines as in the "The Necromicon" (Askin Publishers). The "shub" of shub-internet is Lovecraft's Shub-Niggurath, of course! Having had a second look at the text, I am now convinced that it is garbled Akkadian. The mixture of transliteration (e.g. pu-uttu-ru) and phonetic rendering (e.g. kallatum) is much like the garbled Enochian you read in Szandor La Vey's "Satanic Bible". The fellow who wrote this posting knows even less Akkadian than I do -- to wit: none whatsoever. Glossolalia, nothing more. >From lock60!gvls1!netcom.com!apex Fri Mar 19 19:54:57 1993 Return-Path: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 93 09:13:35 -0800 From: apex@netcom.com (Apex Voice Communications) Message-Id: <9303191713.AA17393@netcom2.netcom.com> To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu Subject: mail problems, and why not move to Netnews? Status: RO > I don't know where to send the gripe to, so I post it here. Anyway, I'm >getting two or more duplicates of the same mailings nowadays from >conlang@buphy.bu.edu......can anyone help me out in cutting this darned >traffic? > Much thanks! John Rogers You get duplicates, but do you get error messages when you post? I complained about error messages almost a month ago, to no avail. I don't recall who it was that I spoke with at buphy.bu.edu, but he said essentially that he had no idea why I would be getting errors. As for the duplicates, I don't mind them so much, (redundancy should help, right?) so long as each duplicate isn't accompanied by N errors and X-fold duplication gets me X*N error mailings. General question to conlangers: Would anybody mind moving conlang to Netnews, and making it, say, sci.lang.constr? Zack Smith apex@netcom.com progress@mcimail.com >From lock60!gvls1!VKPMZD.kph.Uni-Mainz.DE!KNAPPEN Fri Mar 19 19:55:06 1993 Return-Path: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 19:00 GMT +0100 From: J%org Knappen Subject: Re: mail problems, and why not move to Netnews? To: apex@netcom.com Cc: conlang@buphy.bu.edu Message-Id: <01GW04AB2X9S8WWT5Z@VzdmzA.ZDV.Uni-Mainz.DE> X-Envelope-To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu X-Vms-To: VZDMZA::IN%"apex@netcom.com" X-Vms-Cc: GATEWAY"conlang@buphy.bu.edu" Status: RO I strongly disagree in moving to NETNEWS. The reason is, that on netnews the amount of junk is too high in comparison to the amount of any interesting information. --J"org Knappen. >From lock60!gvls1!netcom.com!apex Fri Mar 19 19:55:10 1993 Return-Path: Date: Fri, 19 Mar 93 11:18:21 -0800 From: apex@netcom.com (Apex Voice Communications) Message-Id: <9303191918.AA26735@netcom2.netcom.com> To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu Subject: Re: Why not move to Netnews? Status: RO Subject: Re: why not move to Netnews? To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu >I strongly disagree in moving to NETNEWS. The reason is, that on netnews >the amount of junk is too high in comparison to the amount of any >interesting information. >--J"org Knappen. Yes, but it appears that each option offers a great deal of "junk": If we continue to use a mail list whose mail errors & mail duplications can't be remedied, we'll all have to deal with that form of junk mail. If we go with netnews, we'll open our group up to outsiders who might have novel ideas, but the junk will be from people who haven't got great ideas or require us to teach them. My only fault with Netnews is that not everyone has access to it, whereas nearly everyone, no matter which basic carrier is used (Internet, MCI Mail, Compuserve, etc.) appears to have email capability. However that advantage is lessened by the fact that not everyone with email capability has access to a list of available mail lists. I myself happened upon conlang only through word of mouth; 3 years ago I would have loved to have access to such a group, but no one on sci.lang or soc.culture.esperanto ever mentioned conlang, or themselves appeared to have interest in constructing new languages. The fact is that Netnews is itself a form of advertisement, since everything is listed in the main newsgroup list and prospective participants can scan that list to look for groups of interest. I think that unless conlang is going to periodically advertise itself in various places, AND fix the mail-duplication and mail errors problems, it should be moved to a more open, more reliable, if more restricted and expensive an environment. Anyway, can this be put to a vote? Zack T. Smith apex@netcom.com progress@mcimail.com >From lock60!gvls1!ctr.columbia.edu!shoulson Mon Mar 22 17:13:39 1993 Return-Path: From: (Mark E. Shoulson) Received: by startide.ctr.columbia.edu (5.67/SMI-4.1) id AA06138; Mon, 22 Mar 93 15:42:49 -0500 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 93 15:42:49 -0500 Message-Id: <9303222042.AA06138@startide.ctr.columbia.edu> To: apex@netcom.com Cc: conlang@buphy.bu.edu In-Reply-To: Apex Voice Communications's message of Fri, 19 Mar 93 09:13:35 -0800 <9303191713.AA17393@netcom2.netcom.com> Subject: mail problems, and why not move to Netnews? Status: RO Moving to netnews doesn't strike me as a good plan at this point. Many of our contributors, among them outr more vocal ones, don't have access to netnews. For harder-to-explain personal reasons I personally prefer mailing lists anyway. Put me down against going to netnews, unless we have an automatic two-way refelctor... ~mark >From lock60!gvls1!diku.dk!conlang Tue Mar 23 21:09:19 1993 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 00:26:01 +0100 Message-Id: <9303232320.AA01542@tyr.diku.dk> Comment: Issues related to constructed languages Originator: conlang@diku.dk Errors-To: thorinn@diku.dk Reply-To: conlang@diku.dk Sender: conlang@diku.dk Version: 5.5 -- Copyright (c) 1991/92, Anastasios Kotsikonas From: thorinn@diku.dk To: cowan@snark.thyrsus.com Subject: The mailing list has moved Status: RO By agreement with John Ross, the CONLANG mailing list has been moved to diku.dk, the mail hub of the CS Department of the University of Copenhagen. Send all submissions to CONLANG@diku.dk. The address at buphy still works, but it is just an alias for the new list. I have received the list of subscribers from John, but that list does not include real names. However, some of the features of the Listserv system that is used now assume that the real name is known. I have temporarily inserted N. N. as real name for everybody --- if you want to change it, you should first unsubscribe and then subscribe again. If the From: address in your mail is not exactly the same as the address that appeared in John's list, you will not be able to post to the list, nor to change the address yourself. In that case, write to me (thorinn@diku.dk) and I'll fix it. Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dep) (Humour NOT marked) >From lock60!gvls1!diku.dk!conlang Tue Mar 23 21:09:20 1993 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 00:53:36 +0100 Message-Id: <9303232353.AA09763@odin.diku.dk> Comment: Issues related to constructed languages Originator: conlang@diku.dk Errors-To: thorinn@diku.dk Reply-To: Sender: conlang@diku.dk Version: 5.5 -- Copyright (c) 1991/92, Anastasios Kotsikonas From: robin@extro.ucc.su.oz.au.19.Mar.93 (Robin Gaskell) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Metacognition Status: RO Hi to all Conlangers and to Zack Smith, Interesting how "thought" crops up again. This time you've really done it, Zack, with "thinking about thought." Well, I thought (there we go again) that ``thinking about thought'' was the province of us introverts - and not something widely indulged in by the rest of humanity. Which reminds me: I did read a book by a neuro-physiologist some years back, called "The Pleasure Zones"; in it he concluded that the mark of the fully arrived human being was the recycling of thoght from the initial registration in the cerebral cortex, down into the hypothalamus for affective evaluation of the initial percept, then up to the cortex again for conscious re-evaluation after this emotional reflection on the first response. The "pleasure zones" were the areas in the brain where "pleasure" was perceived; numerous experiments had been done, with a wide variety of species, to support the theory that this reflux of the stimulus did occur. Sadly though, all of the human evidence suggested that only a small number of us use this hypothalamic bounce as our normal way of dealing with sensory inputs. Although the book was brilliant, I'll not mention it again, beyond drawing one example:- STIMULUS RESPONSE A. COMMENT Pleasurable "That was nice!" `I take X because I like it, Substance X OK?' RESPONSE B. "Hmm ... quite `I have used and enjoyed X but pleasant." on reflection about the change it creates in my behaviour and in consideration of others, I will use X sparingly, in future.' Your comments on a language that encouraged, or rather demanded, this type of reflective mental processing stirred a number of responses in me. Here they are in summary form:- 1. Looking at the actual anatomical processes of language, I would refer you to the September 1992 Special Edition of "Scientific American" on `Mind and Brain.' The article, "Brain and Language," p63, goes into detail about the three different areas that are concerned with the formation of language, and also about which functions are associated with the different areas. The ability to use syntax correctly, for example, seems to be located in an identifiable area of the brain. 2. In earlier postings I have mentioned `thought' while commenting on Glosa, which is a logic language that uses concept/words whose linguistic function is determined by their order - there being no morphological change to indicate grammar or Part-Of-Speech. a. Semantically, the dictionary is a list of concepts that can be used to operate as objects, actions or modifiers - as long as this is meaningful. It can require some reflection on the actual idea we wish to communicate to be sure we have got the right concepts, and that they articulate together in the right way. b. In the past, I have stated that before using Glosa, you first need to think clearly about what you are going to say ... and I was able to satisfactorily reply to critics who asked why I thought this wasn't true of all languages. c. I also claimed that there was a `language of thought' - as you seem also to do - and that, of all the Planned Languages I had seen, so far, Glosa appeared to be the closest to this mythical means by which we talk to ourselves and marshal our thoughts prior to speaking. d. Originally, when the Glosa 1000 word-list was the only one available, the authors encouraged me to use this `restricted set' of concepts and to find the concept/word that most suited my needs when the English language equivalent was not listed: this did test my communicative powers, and I am sure it forced me to think a lot more clearly about what I intended to say; however, now, I do feel more comfortable using the broader "Glosa 6000" concept/word base. e. As a result of this exercise of mind - using only Glosa 1000 - I found that I certainly avoided translating English language idiom into Glosa; also, I realised how much of my normal language and *actual thinking* was using metaphor! Because in Glosa, one is supposed to use the correct concept/word, and not a metaphor, the question often arises, "Am I attempting to use a metaphor, here, and if so, what is the actual concept I wish to convey ... and what is the relevant Glosa concept/word for it?" 3. While attempts to regularise national language and Esperanto have resulted in grammatical laws that are represented mainly morphologically, these languages do not require their users to ponder their intention before speaking. It is my observation that the national languages, in general can be operated quite sloppily, and still, the meaning is reasonably well understood. To some extent, vagueness is built into national languages ... and this may be a good thing. However it is this absence of a-need-for-reflection in the national languages and most Planned Languages that prompts you to find, or create, a language in which thinking about your thoughts is mandatory. Glosa can be - and is often - used in the pedestrian mode; though it does, in its literary and technical writing modes, call upon the writer, or speaker, to think about what they are attempting to communicate before writing, or speaking. 4. Together with the `language of thought' there is the associated `natural logic' that we use when thinking; Glosa is designed to operate as a _logic language_ and, thus, is planned to be used parallel with the natural logical processes of the brain. The main feature that causes this to happen, in Glosa, is the use of concepts - with each concept represented by a word. This is similar to the way Chinese works: the particular grammatical function of a concept is given by its position in a sentence. ----- That's about all. Not sure if what I've said has helped to establish Glosa as a Planned Language that helps people to think about their thought processes. However, asking myself the question, about what it was I was really trying to say, has been an important part of my experience of Glosa. ____________________________________________________Cheers, Robin__ Robin Gaskell (robin@extro.ucc.su.oz.au) Ron Clark & Wendy Ashby 46 Edna Ave Glosa Merrylands 2160 PO Box 18, Richmond >From thorinn@tyr.diku.dk Wed Mar 24 01:38:43 1993 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 01:38:42 +0100 From: thorinn@diku.dk Message-Id: <9303240038.AA01893@tyr.diku.dk> To: conlang@diku.dk Subject: Distribution test This is a test to see if the list will run properly on auto-pilot. It just sent out an article by Robin Gaskell, but I was fiddling with it at the time, so it is possible that only some subscribers got it. If you didn't get it, yell. Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dep) (Humour NOT marked) >From thorinn@tyr.diku.dk Wed Mar 24 16:32:09 1993 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 16:32:08 +0100 From: thorinn@diku.dk Message-Id: <9303241532.AA07856@tyr.diku.dk> To: conlang@diku.dk Subject: Further administrivia It seems that many of the addresses on John Ross' subscriber list are different from the sender addresses that ListServ sees. This means that you will get nasty letters from ListServ when you try to send to the list. The solution is to resubscribe, which will put the proper address on the list. Please inform me when you do that, so that I can remove the old address --- otherwise, you'll begin to get two copies of the list. FYI, there are currently 89 addresses on the list. Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dep) (Humour NOT marked) >From riddle@is.rice.edu Wed Mar 24 16:36:47 1993 From: riddle@is.rice.edu (Prentiss Riddle) Message-Id: <9303241536.AA15121@is.rice.edu> Subject: Re: The mailing list has moved To: thorinn@diku.dk Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 9:36:44 CST Cc: CONLANG@diku.dk In-Reply-To: <9303232320.AA01542@tyr.diku.dk>; from "thorinn@diku.dk" at Mar 24, 93 12:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] > From conlang@diku.dk Tue Mar 23 17:25:35 1993 > From: thorinn@diku.dk > To: riddle@is.rice.edu > Subject: The mailing list has moved > > If the From: address in your mail is not exactly the same as the > address that appeared in John's list, you will not be able to post to > the list, nor to change the address yourself. In that case, write to > me (thorinn@diku.dk) and I'll fix it. > > Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dep) (Humour NOT marked) Why this restriction? Won't this just cause a lot of unnecessary headache for both the participants in the list and the list maintainer? I know that I occasionally post from systems which present my return address in different forms, and I suspect that others will have this problem even more frequently. I could understand this if conlang were an invitation-only list concerned with harassment, but I don't think that's the case. -- Prentiss Riddle ("aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada") riddle@rice.edu -- Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer. >From thorinn@tyr.diku.dk Wed Mar 24 16:41:11 1993 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 16:41:10 +0100 From: thorinn@diku.dk Message-Id: <9303241541.AA07896@tyr.diku.dk> To: riddle@is.rice.edu Cc: CONLANG@diku.dk In-Reply-To: Prentiss Riddle's message of Wed, 24 Mar 93 9:36:44 CST <9303241536.AA15121@is.rice.edu> Subject: The mailing list has moved It's not me, it's the software. Furthermore, I am afraid that it is looking at the envelope instead of the real From: header. If I get the time, I'll try to fix it. Also, there is an alias facility that will allow people to send from other addresses than the one on the list --- I didn't mention it because I had forgotten about it. Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dep) (Humour NOT marked) >From mnu@inel.gov Wed Mar 24 22:12:31 1993 Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 14:11:44 MST From: mnu@inel.gov (Rick Morneau) Message-Id: <9303242111.AA00474@ nairobi.inel.gov.inel.gov > Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.63) To: conlang@diku.dk Subject: Re: Further administrivia Howdy conlangers! This is a question for Lars that may be of general interest... How does this new list work? Does it automatically distribute everything sent to it, or is it moderated? The reason I ask is that I posted a request for information on how to subscribe and unsubscribe, but I never received a copy of my post (although Lars DID post an answer). Perhaps the list server does not send a copy to the original poster? I have to admit that I prefer receiving copies of my posts, since it is an effective acknowledgement that they reached the list. Regards, Rick -- *=*= Disclaimer: The INEL does not speak for me and vice versa =*=* = Rick Morneau Idaho National Engineering Laboratory = * mnu@inel.gov Idaho Falls, Idaho 83415, USA * =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= NeXT Mail accepted here! *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= >From eboyd@unixg.ubc.ca Thu Mar 25 00:38:03 1993 Message-Id: <9303242337.AA04598@unixg.ubc.ca> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 15:37:57 -0500 To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu From: eboyd@unixg.ubc.ca(Ewan Boyd) Subject: Global Lang Barriers, etc Cc: robin@extro.ucc.su.oz.au Hello Robin, and any other interested people. First Robin, why the variations in your address? I have shown both in order to be sure you get this. I have been away and am trying to catch up with what you have been trying to do. I believe we will have to look elsewhere to find parties that are:- Concerned with the present situation of poor communications because of language barriers, and furthermore are prepared to contribute in some way towards the best long term solution to this problem. I was hoping that we would get agreement on the following course of action:-- 1. Create a broad awareness of the problem, and solicit responses from any who want to work in some capacity 2 . Break in to three teams depending on the area of interest, skill and resources of the particular volunteer. These would be:-- a) AWARENESS GROUP - concerned with creating public awareness of the problem on a global scale, publicity, recruiting resources, long term planning. b) SPECIFICATIONS GROUP - looking at the various short and long term solutions, prepare preliminary performance specifications for the system. Prepare other documents for bidding and selection, as and when appropriate. c) LANGUAGE DESIGN GROUP - Those interested and with expertise in the design of a superior Global Second Language, capable of being introduced into the world's primary and secondary education systems. The linguists in Conlang might want to concentrate on this, but until more work is done on the specification, they may not have sufficient guide-lines to proceed. So where do we go from here? I believe we should search the Internet indexes and make enquiries to such authorities as LSTSRV-L@rutvml.rutgers.edu, and Marty Hoag (LSTSRV@vml.nodak.edu) If we don't find any existing lists we can get help on starting our own. Once it is up and running we can let the electronic world know by posting a message to North Dakota's celebrated NEW-LIST List for them to spread the news far and wide. A local features writer, Michael Scott (mscott@mindlink.bc.ca) is doing a series of articles in the Vancouver Sun Saturday Review. The general theme is "ON THE LINE" and the one I have in front of me is "Take the leap into cyberspace with a list of your own" I explained our project and he is very interested.. So he may be a very timely resource person. He has given me the name of a linguist at UBC, Taylor Roberts (Taylor-Roberts@MTSG.ubc.ca) who knows the internet very well. I am going to contact him for further ideas. So let me have your ideas please. Yours for a more harmonious world, Ewan Boyd 4-1937 W 2nd Av Vancouver, BC V6J 1J2 Canada 604 734 0356 FAX 604-739-1325 Email: eboyd@unixg.ubc.ca , eboyd@web.apc.org >From lock60!gvls1!diku.dk!conlang Thu Mar 25 06:52:17 1993 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by odin.diku.dk with SMTP id AA20635 (5.65+/IDA-1.3.5 for lock60!snark!cowan@gvls1.vfl.paramax.com); Thu, 25 Mar 93 12:48:07 +0100 Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 12:48:07 +0100 Message-Id: <9303251142.AA11355@tyr.diku.dk> Comment: Issues related to constructed languages Originator: conlang@diku.dk Errors-To: thorinn@diku.dk Reply-To: conlang@diku.dk Sender: conlang@diku.dk Version: 5.5 -- Copyright (c) 1991/92, Anastasios Kotsikonas From: thorinn@diku.dk To: lock60!snark!cowan@gvls1.vfl.paramax.com Subject: More administrivia Status: RO Executive summary: If you get a message saying that you aren't subscribed, you can wait a day or so, and I'll fix it --- or you can resubscribe, in which case you will get two copies of the list until I fix it. There has been a lot of traffic on the listserv, mostly people trying to set their names correctly; it turns out that there are many problems with this. The main cause is that for many subscribers, the ListServ cannot see that the letter comes from the address that was on John Ross' list. That is because the software is written to use the so-called 'From_' header, also known as the envelope sender. (I might be able to change this, but that would cause problems for those who have already changed their address. Since I don't know how many more will need their addresses changed, I can't rationally choose which group to inconvenience --- and so my own convenience wins, and the software stays as is.) You can very easily see which address you are subscribed under: it is the one in the To:-header of this message (unless your local mailer rewrites it --- if so, it should have its knuckles rapped). It is a little harder to find out which address will appear in 'From_' once the mail reaches DIKU. Many mailers that normalize From:-headers on outgoing mail will not do that for the From_ address; UUCP transport will also do strange things to it. If you cannot easily find out what From_ will be, try sending the command set conlang mail ack to listserv@diku.dk. If it tells you that you are not subscribed, it will also show the address that it saw on the mail. I have now found out that there is an alias file, where I can enter the various 'From_' addresses as synonyms for the address on the list. I think this is preferrable to changing the list itself; the current address is often ``better'' in the sense that it uses an official gateway machine instead of the host people have happened to log in on. In fact, there may be cases where it is not possible, or at least suboptimal, to send mail to the 'From_' address. (If anybody wants to ``improve'' their address, send me a mail.) When somebody gets a ``not subscribed'' message, I always get a copy. If I find another address for that person already on the list, I will add an alias and inform the subscriber. I have already added the following: knappen@vkpmzj.kph.uni-mainz.de knappen@vkpmzd.kph.uni-mainz.de v119n57h@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu v119n57h@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu zane@genesis.mcs.com zane@ddsw1.mcs.com I have also removed old addresses for John Cowan and Richard Kennaway, who had resubscribed under working addresses. Other matters: I have removed dwolff@res-c4.prime.com and ski8032@tamsun.tamu.edu from the list due to mail bouncing. Until now, people have not received a copy themselves when sending mail to the list. I have changed this, by setting the MAIL ACK option for everybody, as in the example above. But please note that if you resubscribe, this option will start out as NOACK again; if you don't want that, remember to send a SET CONLANG MAIL ACK to ListServ. All postings through the new ListServ are being collected in an archive, which will be accessible through ListServ itself, and possibly by FTP. However, I haven't set up the necessary links yet. Several people have asked where to send administrative messages. With ListServ, there is no such address --- but my address appears in every message sent, in the Errors-To: header (which your mail reader probably hides, however, unless you ask it nicely). There are currently 86 addresses on the list, of which two are known duplicates. Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dep) (Humour NOT marked) >From lock60!gvls1!diku.dk!conlang Fri Mar 26 09:57:00 1993 Return-Path: Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 15:35:29 +0100 Message-Id: <9303261321.AA15787@violet.berkeley.edu> Comment: Issues related to constructed languages Originator: conlang@diku.dk Errors-To: thorinn@diku.dk Reply-To: conlang@diku.dk Sender: conlang@diku.dk Version: 5.5 -- Copyright (c) 1991/92, Anastasios Kotsikonas From: chalmers@violet.berkeley.edu (John H. Chalmers Jr.) To: cowan@snark.thyrsus.com Subject: E-prime Status: RO For those interested in linguistic oddities, the Spring issue of the Skeptical Inquirer, the journal published by The Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP) has an article on "E-Prime," a semi-artificial dialect of English in which forms of the verb "to be" are replaced by circumlocutions. This dialect is based on the "General Semantics" of Count Alfred Korzybski. Speakers claim E-Prime and GS in general leads to better mental and physical health;t he author, Martin Gardner, former mathematical games columnist of Scientific American attempts to debunk this notion. The full reference is SI.17(3): 261-266. "E-Prime: Getting Rid of Isness." Gardner is as acerbic as usual. An less skeptical article on E-Prime appeared in the Atlantic Monthly in February 1992 as well. SI has published skeptical articles on the linguistics of channelling, reincarnation and past-life regression ("responsive xenoglossy") but generally contains little of conlinguistic relevance, alas. -- John >From lock60!gvls1!diku.dk!conlang Fri Mar 26 17:16:32 1993 Return-Path: Date: Fri, 26 Mar 93 22:35:00 +0100 Message-Id: <9303262023.AA11776@netcom2.netcom.com> Comment: Issues related to constructed languages Originator: conlang@diku.dk Errors-To: thorinn@diku.dk Reply-To: conlang@diku.dk Sender: conlang@diku.dk Version: 5.5 -- Copyright (c) 1991/92, Anastasios Kotsikonas From: zack@netcom.com (Zack T. Smith) To: cowan@snark.thyrsus.com Subject: Robin's last article Status: RO Robin Gaskell writes: >Your comments on a language that encouraged, or rather demanded, this >type of reflective mental processing stirred a number of responses in >me. >... By all means, a metacognition-friendly language should and shall be developed. I'm going to make a serious attempt at seriously updating my language for this in the next few months, and I'll post whatever issues arise on conlang. I have a few simple structures already in place, but not even as many as Loglan, so I've got my work cut out for me. I welcome anyone else who might be interested in this topic to post ideas, comments, insights, concerns, praise, etc., at will. In addition, if anyone thinks that this had already been done, feel free to speak up. I'd like to proceed with this project without repeating others' work, if possible. Zack T. Smith zack@netcom.com >From thorinn@tyr.diku.dk Tue Mar 30 05:15:33 1993 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 93 05:15:32 +0200 From: thorinn@diku.dk Message-Id: <9303300315.AA12379@tyr.diku.dk> To: conlang@diku.dk Subject: [hia5@midway.uchicago.edu: Re: Planned Languages/Planlingvoj] Forwarded from the Esperanto list --- I do not remember if the book has been mentioned here before. Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1993 21:15:38 -0600 To: esperanto@rand.org From: hia5@midway.uchicago.edu Subject: Re: Planned Languages/Planlingvoj There is a very useful book entitled "Mejxdunarodnye vspomogatel'nye jazyki" (International auxilliary languages) by A. D. Dulicxenko, published by Valgus in Tallinn, Estonia, 1990. It is a bibliography of 912 planned languages, dating from the 2nd century (Galen) to 1967 (Sistemi"zd E"nglish). Texts in the planned languages are given when possible as well as a bibliography of works dealing with the language. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- | Howard I. Aronson Miskomprenoj estas eblaj nur inter | | hia5@midway.uchicago.edu samlingvanoj. --Raymond Schwartz | ----------------------------------------------------------------------